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	<title>Comments on: No, Sir, Your Virtual World Is Nothing But A Virtual Soundstage</title>
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	<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/</link>
	<description>The Reticule a PC gaming website focused on innovative articles and more.</description>
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		<title>By: Gamers Rights Law &#187; Transparency in Video Games</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-2048</link>
		<dc:creator>Gamers Rights Law &#187; Transparency in Video Games</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-2048</guid>
		<description>[...] is a very interesting article on The reticule that talks about this concept. Personally, I loved the idea that &#8220;The main tenet of their [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is a very interesting article on The reticule that talks about this concept. Personally, I loved the idea that &#8220;The main tenet of their [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hydrurge</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1994</link>
		<dc:creator>Hydrurge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 06:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1994</guid>
		<description>This is going to sound snarky, but maybe you should try and live this adventure. This is a beautiful dream, and it is a somewhat perpetuated lie in MMOs. I don&#039;t have the experience to make that call, but I think I agree with you.

But you&#039;re looking for something amazing, a world full of secrets that is adaptive to you... Sometimes if you hit life hard enough, (figuratively, of course) it&#039;ll notice. And it will change in response.

I think the only way this could occur is if you took an MMO, and eliminated all the NPCs. No more illusions of interaction, only the opportunity of real interaction with real people. And second, you would need the opponents, at least the complicated, interactive ones, to be human.

Maybe you could have people play both sides, be the traditional PC or be the machine, and reward them for both. Player run instances, with real motivations for both sides to succeed, so no-one can throw the dice...

In short, to do this as a game, you would need people, real people, everywhere. Maybe you could get the players to be those people. Let them be the environment, and the player.

Or maybe I&#039;m spouting nonsense. But still, to make a constantly changing world, you need constantly response. And that&#039;s very difficult to do alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is going to sound snarky, but maybe you should try and live this adventure. This is a beautiful dream, and it is a somewhat perpetuated lie in MMOs. I don&#8217;t have the experience to make that call, but I think I agree with you.</p>
<p>But you&#8217;re looking for something amazing, a world full of secrets that is adaptive to you&#8230; Sometimes if you hit life hard enough, (figuratively, of course) it&#8217;ll notice. And it will change in response.</p>
<p>I think the only way this could occur is if you took an MMO, and eliminated all the NPCs. No more illusions of interaction, only the opportunity of real interaction with real people. And second, you would need the opponents, at least the complicated, interactive ones, to be human.</p>
<p>Maybe you could have people play both sides, be the traditional PC or be the machine, and reward them for both. Player run instances, with real motivations for both sides to succeed, so no-one can throw the dice&#8230;</p>
<p>In short, to do this as a game, you would need people, real people, everywhere. Maybe you could get the players to be those people. Let them be the environment, and the player.</p>
<p>Or maybe I&#8217;m spouting nonsense. But still, to make a constantly changing world, you need constantly response. And that&#8217;s very difficult to do alone.</p>
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		<title>By: TickledBlue</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1986</link>
		<dc:creator>TickledBlue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1986</guid>
		<description>Firstly - great article, well written and very compelling. While I agree with your general point that back of box statements about an MMO being a &#039;living breathing world&#039; is nothing but marketing hype for the most part and that these games are designed for profit, I have to disagree overall.

For a start I think you might be pointing the stick of blame in the wrong direction. For the most part the only people that complain and bemoan the current state of affairs with the genre is &#039;veteran&#039; MMO players, or those who didn&#039;t like the genre to begin with but feel they should because everyone else does and so jump from MMO to MMO looking for satisfaction and never finding it. Everyone else digs on the World of Warcraft and their subscriber numbers bear this out. Most wont bother to try a new MMO and if they do they&#039;ll quietly leave it to return as the new is not like WoW enough. They just don&#039;t post about it on their blogs and in the forums.

The problems inherent in the genre are well known and understood by most designers and producers in the field. The thing is there is little they can do about it when they are beholden to stakeholders who don&#039;t understand and threaten removal of financing if they don&#039;t make it like how &quot;They&quot; want. So what do they do? They try to make smaller incremental changes, they try to make it like, but different enough to capture ex WoW players but also keep the disgruntled veterans happy. These usually end up garnering a small devoted following based around players who love this versions: theme, licensed property or gameplay aspect - enough to keep the lights on but not enough to unseat the behemoth.

I say the real problem is that these games just aren&#039;t fun in the mid to long term, they generally fill another need altogether in those that continue playing them. Living breathing worlds are all fine and good, but they don&#039;t make me want to play a game. I think this stems from the fact that these games are Massive - or at least try to be. If you want to make a game massive you have to try and please everyone. That way just leads to a world of bland and also ran.

I think our savior lies in the direction of the independent developers. The ones with lower costs and fewer idiots holding the money bag. These are the guys who are willing to try new things and experiment. They are content with lower population levels and aim to fill a niche rather than trying to gather the whole market. The thing is that most of what happens in an indy game wont see the light of day in any of the big boys MMO&#039;s because these things tend to polarise populations (full open world PvP, skill based character development over level based, no combat). Anything that a significant proportion of the population wont like, wont get implemented - too much risk.

Anyone who expects deviation from the norm, innovation or experimentation from a big title needs to have their head checked. These guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo - why does all McDonalds taste the same the world over? Why do all mass produced pop idols sound the same? Why do most best sellers read like every other best seller you&#039;ve read? You need to be bland to appeal to the broadest market - stop expecting otherwise. Me? I like my food spicy!

So I say, rage quit your big MMO now, then hunt down an indy MMO that looks promising. Ignore the forum posts about bugs and crashes. Ignore the posts about how Eve does it better - for god sake people not everyone wants to fly a spaceship in a deadly game of spreadsheet micromanagement - sorry sorry, I know there are good Eve players out there I just seem to encounter the frothing at the mouth ones. 

Ignore the claims that indy titles shouldn&#039;t charge the same amount as the big boys (if you think about it they should probably charge more). Just pick one that sounds like fun - and play it. If you keep subscribing to WoW or LOTRO or any of the other AAA clones then nothing will change. Complaining on blogs wont do a damned thing - the only thing that will impact the real decision makers (those who provide the capital) is to hit them where it hurts - the wallet. Give your money to the game that looks like it&#039;s trying to do what you want - don&#039;t wait for it to &#039;get better&#039; or &#039;fix all its bug&#039;, by then it may be too late. Then jump on the forums and give honest and unbiased feedback to the devs of that game. Let them know what works for you, what&#039;s fun and what isn&#039;t. Who knows you may end up getting the game you want, or at least moving in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firstly &#8211; great article, well written and very compelling. While I agree with your general point that back of box statements about an MMO being a &#8216;living breathing world&#8217; is nothing but marketing hype for the most part and that these games are designed for profit, I have to disagree overall.</p>
<p>For a start I think you might be pointing the stick of blame in the wrong direction. For the most part the only people that complain and bemoan the current state of affairs with the genre is &#8216;veteran&#8217; MMO players, or those who didn&#8217;t like the genre to begin with but feel they should because everyone else does and so jump from MMO to MMO looking for satisfaction and never finding it. Everyone else digs on the World of Warcraft and their subscriber numbers bear this out. Most wont bother to try a new MMO and if they do they&#8217;ll quietly leave it to return as the new is not like WoW enough. They just don&#8217;t post about it on their blogs and in the forums.</p>
<p>The problems inherent in the genre are well known and understood by most designers and producers in the field. The thing is there is little they can do about it when they are beholden to stakeholders who don&#8217;t understand and threaten removal of financing if they don&#8217;t make it like how &#8220;They&#8221; want. So what do they do? They try to make smaller incremental changes, they try to make it like, but different enough to capture ex WoW players but also keep the disgruntled veterans happy. These usually end up garnering a small devoted following based around players who love this versions: theme, licensed property or gameplay aspect &#8211; enough to keep the lights on but not enough to unseat the behemoth.</p>
<p>I say the real problem is that these games just aren&#8217;t fun in the mid to long term, they generally fill another need altogether in those that continue playing them. Living breathing worlds are all fine and good, but they don&#8217;t make me want to play a game. I think this stems from the fact that these games are Massive &#8211; or at least try to be. If you want to make a game massive you have to try and please everyone. That way just leads to a world of bland and also ran.</p>
<p>I think our savior lies in the direction of the independent developers. The ones with lower costs and fewer idiots holding the money bag. These are the guys who are willing to try new things and experiment. They are content with lower population levels and aim to fill a niche rather than trying to gather the whole market. The thing is that most of what happens in an indy game wont see the light of day in any of the big boys MMO&#8217;s because these things tend to polarise populations (full open world PvP, skill based character development over level based, no combat). Anything that a significant proportion of the population wont like, wont get implemented &#8211; too much risk.</p>
<p>Anyone who expects deviation from the norm, innovation or experimentation from a big title needs to have their head checked. These guys have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo &#8211; why does all McDonalds taste the same the world over? Why do all mass produced pop idols sound the same? Why do most best sellers read like every other best seller you&#8217;ve read? You need to be bland to appeal to the broadest market &#8211; stop expecting otherwise. Me? I like my food spicy!</p>
<p>So I say, rage quit your big MMO now, then hunt down an indy MMO that looks promising. Ignore the forum posts about bugs and crashes. Ignore the posts about how Eve does it better &#8211; for god sake people not everyone wants to fly a spaceship in a deadly game of spreadsheet micromanagement &#8211; sorry sorry, I know there are good Eve players out there I just seem to encounter the frothing at the mouth ones. </p>
<p>Ignore the claims that indy titles shouldn&#8217;t charge the same amount as the big boys (if you think about it they should probably charge more). Just pick one that sounds like fun &#8211; and play it. If you keep subscribing to WoW or LOTRO or any of the other AAA clones then nothing will change. Complaining on blogs wont do a damned thing &#8211; the only thing that will impact the real decision makers (those who provide the capital) is to hit them where it hurts &#8211; the wallet. Give your money to the game that looks like it&#8217;s trying to do what you want &#8211; don&#8217;t wait for it to &#8216;get better&#8217; or &#8216;fix all its bug&#8217;, by then it may be too late. Then jump on the forums and give honest and unbiased feedback to the devs of that game. Let them know what works for you, what&#8217;s fun and what isn&#8217;t. Who knows you may end up getting the game you want, or at least moving in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: zipdrive</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1979</link>
		<dc:creator>zipdrive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1979</guid>
		<description>Steve,
How can you complain on one hand that the worlds are nothing like the real world and immediately complain that &quot;your avatar moved through the world so unnoticed that he may as well have never existed&quot;?
That&#039;s EXACTLY like the real world. most of us go through our lives without titanic events, most other people never learning our name and very little of our experiences are worth &quot;telling your grandkids&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,<br />
How can you complain on one hand that the worlds are nothing like the real world and immediately complain that &#8220;your avatar moved through the world so unnoticed that he may as well have never existed&#8221;?<br />
That&#8217;s EXACTLY like the real world. most of us go through our lives without titanic events, most other people never learning our name and very little of our experiences are worth &#8220;telling your grandkids&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2009-10-19 / read write play</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1976</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2009-10-19 / read write play</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1976</guid>
		<description>[...] No, Sir, Your Virtual World Is Nothing But A Virtual Soundstage &#8211; The Reticule Steve Peacock argues for the disconnect between player characters and the world of MMORPGs: &quot;a living world would let players build their own stories, have their own unique tales to tell.&quot; (tags: narrative games videogames mmo mmorpg) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] No, Sir, Your Virtual World Is Nothing But A Virtual Soundstage &#8211; The Reticule Steve Peacock argues for the disconnect between player characters and the world of MMORPGs: &quot;a living world would let players build their own stories, have their own unique tales to tell.&quot; (tags: narrative games videogames mmo mmorpg) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: solipsistnation</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1967</link>
		<dc:creator>solipsistnation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1967</guid>
		<description>Check out A Tale in the Desert-- www.atitd.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out A Tale in the Desert&#8211; <a href="http://www.atitd.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.atitd.com</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Melf_Himself</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1966</link>
		<dc:creator>Melf_Himself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1966</guid>
		<description>Sounds like you want to play Second Life my friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like you want to play Second Life my friend.</p>
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		<title>By: t_m</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1958</link>
		<dc:creator>t_m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1958</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve felt for ages that the necessary next step forward for RPGs (MMO and normal cRPG) is some kind of AI director/dungeonmaster. 

Even in single player RPGs I often find the options too limiting. I can hit them. Shoot them. Or magic them. Maybe i can also pickpocket them or charm them.  But i can&#039;t do anything creative or original. I can&#039;t balance a bucket of water over the door and drop it on the flaming skull creature&#039;s head. I can&#039;t bribe flaming skull guy (with cash or chips) to turn on his master and help me out. Etc...

The best P&amp;P rpgs were when players ignored all the dice and just came up with cool/crazy/original solutions... and the gamesmaster pretended to roll some dice, but actually just let them pull it off. 

MMOs (or cRPGs) where the game is essentially making up interesting scenarios, and reacting to your actions IN A WAY TO MAKE THE GAME MORE FUN would be amazing.. and i think that lots of mini AI gamesmasters might be the way to do it. 

I had hoped the L4D AI director would do that... but he seems to be just a difficulty slider.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve felt for ages that the necessary next step forward for RPGs (MMO and normal cRPG) is some kind of AI director/dungeonmaster. </p>
<p>Even in single player RPGs I often find the options too limiting. I can hit them. Shoot them. Or magic them. Maybe i can also pickpocket them or charm them.  But i can&#8217;t do anything creative or original. I can&#8217;t balance a bucket of water over the door and drop it on the flaming skull creature&#8217;s head. I can&#8217;t bribe flaming skull guy (with cash or chips) to turn on his master and help me out. Etc&#8230;</p>
<p>The best P&amp;P rpgs were when players ignored all the dice and just came up with cool/crazy/original solutions&#8230; and the gamesmaster pretended to roll some dice, but actually just let them pull it off. </p>
<p>MMOs (or cRPGs) where the game is essentially making up interesting scenarios, and reacting to your actions IN A WAY TO MAKE THE GAME MORE FUN would be amazing.. and i think that lots of mini AI gamesmasters might be the way to do it. </p>
<p>I had hoped the L4D AI director would do that&#8230; but he seems to be just a difficulty slider.</p>
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		<title>By: The Sunday Papers &#124; Rock, Paper, Shotgun</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1955</link>
		<dc:creator>The Sunday Papers &#124; Rock, Paper, Shotgun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 11:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1955</guid>
		<description>[...] at the Reticule, Steve Peacock gets frustrated with MMOs, which is something I suspect many of us will have sympathy with. The genre codification has left [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at the Reticule, Steve Peacock gets frustrated with MMOs, which is something I suspect many of us will have sympathy with. The genre codification has left [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Roundup – 17th October &#124; PC Gaming news</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/10/no-sir-your-virtual-world-is-nothing-but-a-virtual-soundstage/comment-page-1/#comment-1950</link>
		<dc:creator>The Roundup – 17th October &#124; PC Gaming news</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=4884#comment-1950</guid>
		<description>[...] Two other pieces I want to highlight, Greg&#8217;s take on Rapture here and Steve ranting at MMOs here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Two other pieces I want to highlight, Greg&#8217;s take on Rapture here and Steve ranting at MMOs here. [...]</p>
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