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	<title>Comments on: The Hitler Problem</title>
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	<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/</link>
	<description>The Reticule a PC gaming website focused on innovative articles and more.</description>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-1437</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 08:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-1437</guid>
		<description>&gt; What would your justifications as a leader be for invading and occupying all these countries in that setting that don’t involve greed or tyranny (or crazed ideological dogma)?

But what is it in Empire?

I really don&#039;t think that people would take a 20th Century Total War as a Hitler: Total War.  The potential problem here isn&#039;t taking over the world (that was the aim in Axis and Allies, and nobody complained about that), but the sensitivity of the Holocaust and other such atrocities.  And the solution is simple.  Don&#039;t mention them.  Despite the fact that the Holocaust happened in real life, if you don&#039;t have the capability to perform it, and it doesn&#039;t appear in a historical event notification window, and your faction leader&#039;s name isn&#039;t Hitler (or Stalin, for that matter), but instead some randomly picked name like it is in Empire...then it hasn&#039;t happened in your game, and really nobody can complain, unless it&#039;s that you DIDN&#039;T include it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; What would your justifications as a leader be for invading and occupying all these countries in that setting that don’t involve greed or tyranny (or crazed ideological dogma)?</p>
<p>But what is it in Empire?</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t think that people would take a 20th Century Total War as a Hitler: Total War.  The potential problem here isn&#8217;t taking over the world (that was the aim in Axis and Allies, and nobody complained about that), but the sensitivity of the Holocaust and other such atrocities.  And the solution is simple.  Don&#8217;t mention them.  Despite the fact that the Holocaust happened in real life, if you don&#8217;t have the capability to perform it, and it doesn&#8217;t appear in a historical event notification window, and your faction leader&#8217;s name isn&#8217;t Hitler (or Stalin, for that matter), but instead some randomly picked name like it is in Empire&#8230;then it hasn&#8217;t happened in your game, and really nobody can complain, unless it&#8217;s that you DIDN&#8217;T include it.</p>
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		<title>By: Phill Cameron</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-569</link>
		<dc:creator>Phill Cameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-569</guid>
		<description>The fact that you used &#039;traditional Wargames&#039; is essentially the problem here. Total War isn&#039;t really a traditional game in any way. It&#039;s a bit of a genre straddling game where you have both elements of diplomacy and nation management along with the battles and such. Because all those elements are mixed together, it becomes far more relevant, where something like Company of Heroes doesn&#039;t really touch on the same things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that you used &#8216;traditional Wargames&#8217; is essentially the problem here. Total War isn&#8217;t really a traditional game in any way. It&#8217;s a bit of a genre straddling game where you have both elements of diplomacy and nation management along with the battles and such. Because all those elements are mixed together, it becomes far more relevant, where something like Company of Heroes doesn&#8217;t really touch on the same things.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Alexander</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-565</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-565</guid>
		<description>Somehow traditional wargames managed to muddle through the &#039;60s while producing dozens or hundreds of games set during World War II without sending people into a panic. And that was while World War II was still relatively fresh in the memories of many.

I&#039;m not convinced this is actually any kind of serious issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somehow traditional wargames managed to muddle through the &#8217;60s while producing dozens or hundreds of games set during World War II without sending people into a panic. And that was while World War II was still relatively fresh in the memories of many.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not convinced this is actually any kind of serious issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Melf_Himself</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>Melf_Himself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-445</guid>
		<description>They dealt with this issue splendidly in Red Alert, whose plot centers around someone going back in time to assassinate Hitler... which causes Stalin to become the big new bad-ass on the block. You can play as either Stalin&#039;s side or the Ally&#039;s side. It&#039;s not historically accurate, but it&#039;s believable given the backstory supplied and political climate at the time.

Of course, erm, Total War don&#039;t have this option available to them without looking a bit unoriginal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They dealt with this issue splendidly in Red Alert, whose plot centers around someone going back in time to assassinate Hitler&#8230; which causes Stalin to become the big new bad-ass on the block. You can play as either Stalin&#8217;s side or the Ally&#8217;s side. It&#8217;s not historically accurate, but it&#8217;s believable given the backstory supplied and political climate at the time.</p>
<p>Of course, erm, Total War don&#8217;t have this option available to them without looking a bit unoriginal.</p>
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		<title>By: Spiral Architect</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator>Spiral Architect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-415</guid>
		<description>The point isn&#039;t really whether Hitler is in it or not. You may not be playing as Hitler literally, but any game in a mid 20th Century setting in which a country (You, the player) succeeds in aggressively taking over most or all of Western Europe, and other nations band together to fight you (Bound to happen in a TW game), with WW2 era technology and weaponry, irrespective of what country you start off as, is going to have strong overtones of being Hitler The Game. What would your justifications as a leader be for invading and occupying all these countries in that setting that don&#039;t involve greed or tyranny (or crazed ideological dogma)? You could of course say the same about war in any period, but like Phil says in the other games you&#039;re playing a romanticised role, plus they are set in the times of huge empires and wars, whether the Roman empire or the Holy Roman empire. What aggressive empire and huge war are people inevitably going to think of in a 20th Century setting, a not very romantic one at that?  As for not following the course of history, I agree, and part of the appeal of the TW games is being able to rewrite history. But don&#039;t they normally try to include certain key world events that stirred things up, especially ones as important as the Great Depression for example. which led to the arguably inevitable rise of extremist parties like the Nazis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point isn&#8217;t really whether Hitler is in it or not. You may not be playing as Hitler literally, but any game in a mid 20th Century setting in which a country (You, the player) succeeds in aggressively taking over most or all of Western Europe, and other nations band together to fight you (Bound to happen in a TW game), with WW2 era technology and weaponry, irrespective of what country you start off as, is going to have strong overtones of being Hitler The Game. What would your justifications as a leader be for invading and occupying all these countries in that setting that don&#8217;t involve greed or tyranny (or crazed ideological dogma)? You could of course say the same about war in any period, but like Phil says in the other games you&#8217;re playing a romanticised role, plus they are set in the times of huge empires and wars, whether the Roman empire or the Holy Roman empire. What aggressive empire and huge war are people inevitably going to think of in a 20th Century setting, a not very romantic one at that?  As for not following the course of history, I agree, and part of the appeal of the TW games is being able to rewrite history. But don&#8217;t they normally try to include certain key world events that stirred things up, especially ones as important as the Great Depression for example. which led to the arguably inevitable rise of extremist parties like the Nazis?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Evans</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-408</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-408</guid>
		<description>I think this is a moot point, thus why I didn&#039;t bring it up at all in my &lt;a href=&quot;http://thereticule.com/2009/01/15/what-next-for-total-war/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;What Next for Total War&lt;/a&gt; post. You see in playing a Total War game, you are thrown into a time period where in reality loads of different things happened. But what makes the Total War games so important is that not everything has to happen. Yes in Medieval 2 there is the finding of America and the first ballistics (i think), but apart from these few things, you don&#039;t have to follow the course of history.

Lets fast forward to the modern era then, how would the game deal with the situation of the World Wars and coincidentally, Hitler; nuclear war and all the other horrendous atrocities we saw? Simple, they don&#039;t have to happen. If the game starts in the late 1800&#039;s when the major wars of that period (Crimean especially) then the game would start at a perfect place.

This was a time when the major powers started an arms race, namely Britain and Germany at the time, if we are inserted into the game here, then we have the chance to control our own destiny. Rather than escalate the situation which led towards World War One, we can take the peaceful approach and lead Europe into decades of peace; or take the continent into war again.

Take it a step further, regardless of what happens with a possible World War One, in 1917/1918 the first tanks become available to develop. So too at this time they could implement a Russian Civil War, though again that touches on dangerous territory with Stalin. In 1945 the nuclear bomb is created and such forth on in history.

In this way I think it would be simple enough to avoid the moral dilema posed by the 20th Century still being part of the recent past and firmly engrained on our memories. The one issue with taking the game in this direction and not necessarily having Hitler appear is that people would think that the game is skirting the issues. 

That poses another massive problem, but that is best left for another long ramble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a moot point, thus why I didn&#8217;t bring it up at all in my <a href="http://thereticule.com/2009/01/15/what-next-for-total-war/" rel="nofollow">What Next for Total War</a> post. You see in playing a Total War game, you are thrown into a time period where in reality loads of different things happened. But what makes the Total War games so important is that not everything has to happen. Yes in Medieval 2 there is the finding of America and the first ballistics (i think), but apart from these few things, you don&#8217;t have to follow the course of history.</p>
<p>Lets fast forward to the modern era then, how would the game deal with the situation of the World Wars and coincidentally, Hitler; nuclear war and all the other horrendous atrocities we saw? Simple, they don&#8217;t have to happen. If the game starts in the late 1800&#8217;s when the major wars of that period (Crimean especially) then the game would start at a perfect place.</p>
<p>This was a time when the major powers started an arms race, namely Britain and Germany at the time, if we are inserted into the game here, then we have the chance to control our own destiny. Rather than escalate the situation which led towards World War One, we can take the peaceful approach and lead Europe into decades of peace; or take the continent into war again.</p>
<p>Take it a step further, regardless of what happens with a possible World War One, in 1917/1918 the first tanks become available to develop. So too at this time they could implement a Russian Civil War, though again that touches on dangerous territory with Stalin. In 1945 the nuclear bomb is created and such forth on in history.</p>
<p>In this way I think it would be simple enough to avoid the moral dilema posed by the 20th Century still being part of the recent past and firmly engrained on our memories. The one issue with taking the game in this direction and not necessarily having Hitler appear is that people would think that the game is skirting the issues. </p>
<p>That poses another massive problem, but that is best left for another long ramble.</p>
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		<title>By: Nuyan</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-405</link>
		<dc:creator>Nuyan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-405</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a huge problem as games like Hearts of Iron and Strategic Command have shown. I think Total War in a modern setting would be rather boring, but that&#039;s offtopic.

What I often hate in many games is the bad kind of PC. The kind of PC that makes issues totally shallow by making it interchangeable and remove anything that could even be a slightly provocative. Like Assasins Creed does with the religion and Crusade stuff. I hate that stuff passionately. 

Personally I&#039;d love to see these issues being handled in a game, making people think about it, allow players to discover that history in different perspectives. Even with the slavery stuff in Empire Total War it could&#039;ve been done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a huge problem as games like Hearts of Iron and Strategic Command have shown. I think Total War in a modern setting would be rather boring, but that&#8217;s offtopic.</p>
<p>What I often hate in many games is the bad kind of PC. The kind of PC that makes issues totally shallow by making it interchangeable and remove anything that could even be a slightly provocative. Like Assasins Creed does with the religion and Crusade stuff. I hate that stuff passionately. </p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;d love to see these issues being handled in a game, making people think about it, allow players to discover that history in different perspectives. Even with the slavery stuff in Empire Total War it could&#8217;ve been done.</p>
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		<title>By: StalinsGhost</title>
		<link>http://thereticule.com/2009/01/the-hitler-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-404</link>
		<dc:creator>StalinsGhost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thereticule.com/?p=1292#comment-404</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t agree more. While my own major personal aversion to anything 20th century onwards is that it&#039;s covering ground already well trodden, and there&#039;s not enough swords and steel (even Empire will have alot of melee combat) set games, I feel this ideological perspective is another one.
/

I actually feel that I&#039;d be fine playing a FPS as a German soldier. You are after all, but a cog in the machine, having been put into place and geared up by the Nazi propaganda machine. But I&#039;m not really sure how you can honestly portray the administration of Nazi Germany, or indeed any of the nations of the period without making clear the fact that their affairs were often undertaken in the context of some horrific ideology. Remember, the main players outside of the Axis weren&#039;t totally absolved of sins, being post-Imperial powers. After all, British planes strafing Iraqi villages in a desperate effort to keep &quot;the locals&quot; under sway is a very potent image in peoples minds and is a painful memory (and even more painfully re-lived today) to the people of the Middle East today. Conversly, I suppose you could argue that like slaves in Empire, they&#039;ll be more or less &quot;put to the side&quot;, with the game focusing soley on Economic/Miltary/Administrative matters in the way the Hearts of Iron series does - which is probably the best comparison to a Total War game set in the modern age.
/

The thing is I suppose, we are pretty much all connected to these horrific Imperial abominations in our own ways. While Empire is starting to include nations that have more or less stretched through to the present in one shape or form, I think we&#039;ve long come to be able to distance ourselves from the Red Coats. We can however, still associate ourselves with the men and women who fought and died in wars past and present. We totally understand that wars in earlier periods were undertaken by corrupt kings or governments - and we know that we should be wary of associating ourselves with them.
/

It&#039;s harder however telling someone to take control of say, the British at the turn of the century when they&#039;re so directly associated with the government of today. But on the other hand - maybe we need teaching about who our ancestors really were? What they really did? What they still do. When I put it that way mind, perhaps I&#039;d revel in the idea of teaching people the brutal reality of British Imperial rule as late as the 1960s for a change...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree more. While my own major personal aversion to anything 20th century onwards is that it&#8217;s covering ground already well trodden, and there&#8217;s not enough swords and steel (even Empire will have alot of melee combat) set games, I feel this ideological perspective is another one.<br />
/</p>
<p>I actually feel that I&#8217;d be fine playing a FPS as a German soldier. You are after all, but a cog in the machine, having been put into place and geared up by the Nazi propaganda machine. But I&#8217;m not really sure how you can honestly portray the administration of Nazi Germany, or indeed any of the nations of the period without making clear the fact that their affairs were often undertaken in the context of some horrific ideology. Remember, the main players outside of the Axis weren&#8217;t totally absolved of sins, being post-Imperial powers. After all, British planes strafing Iraqi villages in a desperate effort to keep &#8220;the locals&#8221; under sway is a very potent image in peoples minds and is a painful memory (and even more painfully re-lived today) to the people of the Middle East today. Conversly, I suppose you could argue that like slaves in Empire, they&#8217;ll be more or less &#8220;put to the side&#8221;, with the game focusing soley on Economic/Miltary/Administrative matters in the way the Hearts of Iron series does &#8211; which is probably the best comparison to a Total War game set in the modern age.<br />
/</p>
<p>The thing is I suppose, we are pretty much all connected to these horrific Imperial abominations in our own ways. While Empire is starting to include nations that have more or less stretched through to the present in one shape or form, I think we&#8217;ve long come to be able to distance ourselves from the Red Coats. We can however, still associate ourselves with the men and women who fought and died in wars past and present. We totally understand that wars in earlier periods were undertaken by corrupt kings or governments &#8211; and we know that we should be wary of associating ourselves with them.<br />
/</p>
<p>It&#8217;s harder however telling someone to take control of say, the British at the turn of the century when they&#8217;re so directly associated with the government of today. But on the other hand &#8211; maybe we need teaching about who our ancestors really were? What they really did? What they still do. When I put it that way mind, perhaps I&#8217;d revel in the idea of teaching people the brutal reality of British Imperial rule as late as the 1960s for a change&#8230;</p>
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